does that mean taxes, transfers? whatever. but we've got a lot of poor people in this country who are doing a lot worse. we have more than 2 million people incarcerated in this country. they won't go to these issues. >> you know, and obviously, your issue and my issue, we talked about the debt for a very long time, dr. sachs. you were talking about the president's interview with us. you were surprised by some of the things he told us. >> look, the big challenge for the president is to look different than the last four years. i think his announcement in his interview is absolutely right. if he can get a grand bargain on the big-budget issues, deficit reduction, and i think he'd love to move on to the environment. one of the big failures of his first term was cap and trade. the vote on that which really hurt democrats is something that has made them gunshy about talking about that issue, but i think there's no doubt if the president wins and he gets a budget deal, he will move to immigration and energy including trying to deal w